Cannabis and Employment - Branding Bud Live Episode 49
THE SUMMARY
Join Branding Bud Live co-hosts David Paleschuck and Adriana Hemans as we explore the complexities surrounding working within the cannabis industry and the challenges individuals may encounter while seeking employment in this evolving field. We’ll explore the unique dynamics, legal considerations, and cultural shifts that shape the intersection of cannabis and the workforce in our episode titled "Cannabis And Employment" with Raymond Navis, Executive Recruiter and CEO of RW Navis & Associates.
THE CO-HOSTS
David Paleschuck, Adriana Hemans
THE SPECIAL GUESTS
Ray Navis, Executive Recruiter and CEO of RW Navis & Associates
THE TRANSCRIPT
DAVID PALESCHUCK
Welcome to Branding Bud Live, the live stream that’s 100% THC and 0% WTF. Every week we bring business people together to talk about the business of cannabis. I’m David Paleschuck, founder of Branding Bud Consulting Group and author of the first book on cannabis branding, “Branding Bud: The Commercialization of Cannabis.” I’m joined by my co-host and BCF “best cannabis friend,” Adriana Hemans, the Director of Marketing at Green Meadows. Hi Adriana!
ADRIANA HEMANS
Hi David. Thank you for that intro. I’m so excited to co-host the show with you. We’re bringing amazing guests from across the cannabis ecosystem to share their perspectives. My favorite thing about Branding Bud Live is that we focus on building community - and we encourage audience participation. It’s not just about us talking, it’s about all of us building something together. So feel free to drop your questions and/or opinions in the chat, and we’ll share them too.
I’m super excited - and grateful - today for a number of reasons. They are:
#1. I’m grateful to and for our show sponsor - High Hopes
A creative agency that specializes in the cannabis industry.
With over a decade of cannabis experience.
High Hopes understands the challenges of our industry and helps its clients
With better branding, packaging, website design, SEO, and marketing.
I’d like to congratulate them on their recent CLIO Award win
Be sure to check them out at: www.ivegothigherhopes.com
#2. We just launched two online courses on cannabis branding and brand development and have received such great feedback, that we’re going to keep offering up more courses! Please check them out and more at cannabis’s best-kept secret www.brandingbud.com/edu. We’ll throw up a direct link shortly.
#3. Last but not least, our guest today is Ray Navis, Executive Recruiter and CEO of RW Navis & Associates and we’ll be chatting about “Cannabis And Employment.”
Some of the questions we’ll be discussing are:
What are the key challenges faced when seeking employment in the cannabis industry?
How do legal regulations impact job opportunities within the cannabis sector?
How does the corporate culture in the cannabis industry differ from other sectors?
I’m super excited about all the things that are going on and I’m super excited to chat with Angela today.
ADRIANA HEMANS
Me too!
DAVID PALESCHUCK
Let’s welcome, Ray Navis, Executive Recruiter and CEO of RW Navis & Associates. Welcome, Ray.
ADRIANA HEMANS
Welcome, Ray.
RAY NAVIS
Hello, David and Adriana.
ADRIANA HEMANS
Hi Angela.
Tell us about yourself. What are you passionate about?
RAY NAVIS
I'm one of the leading executive recruiters in cannabis. I've been totally focused on cannabis for eight years. I've been an executive recruiter my entire adult life. And actually, my father was an executive recruiter in New York. And they sold his company to Korn Ferry, which is a famous international recruiting firm, and he moved us to Los Angeles and started his own business. And so I grew up in the headhunting world. We were in commercial banking for quite a while, and I've been retired a couple of times, but got back in eight years ago. In cannabis, I thought it would be an exciting ride. And it certainly has been an exciting ride. Not a dull moment. But, and then I'm also the founder of the Canna Pac, which we started about two and a half years ago. And it is a group of C-level executives in cannabis that we get together 100 to 150, about once a month across the country. We started it in California, moved to Arizona, and now we're nationwide.
ADRIANA HEMANS
So with your work with C-level executives and your experience at MJBizCon, I'm sure you can shed some light on questions our audience have. And we do have a question that Melissa just dropped in which I love. And if you don't mind, I'm going to ask it to you right now. “How can we apply universal skills to continue growing within the industry?”
RAY NAVIS
I would say just that the cannabis industry is getting a little bit more corporate and traditional, every three months, every six months. So those skills and picking up those kinds of skills that are more applicable in the corporate world will eventually be very important in cannabis. Right now. Most people in cannabis are looking for cannabis experience. And when they come to me, they're, they're looking for somebody with cannabis experience. Now, there are a couple of verticals, a couple of situations, for example, in the financial area, a Controller or a Cost Accountant, or a VP of Finance, CFO, possibly they can come from outside of cannabis. And I think marketing also is a good possibility where they might bring people in from outside of cannabis. So those are two examples - legal would also be another entry point, those skills that they have in other areas would be really applicable to cannabis as well.
DAVID PALESCHUCK
Ray, I hear what you're saying, but to a certain degree, it almost seems like a chicken or the egg. Fortunately for me, I've been in the industry now 12 years. My background was at American Express, MasterCard, Pepsi, and Microsoft. As soon as the i502 law passed, I left Microsoft to get into the industry. But, in a more mature market, how do people get that experience coming from outside of cannabis?
RAY NAVIS
Well, the next best thing to having cannabis experience would be to have a couple of startups that you've been involved with, because the cannabis industry really is a startup still at this point in there are some big companies, but even those big companies, if you dug into them, they're pretty much startups still. And so I think coming directly from a huge multinational company into the cannabis industry would be difficult right now. But let's say you had that training. And then you were had a couple of startups under your belt, you would probably fit in a lot easier in cannabis.
DAVID PALESCHUCK
It seems it's not only skill set, it's mindset as well.
RAY NAVIS
Everybody says that, one year in cannabis is like three years in any other occupation. And I think you'd probably agree with that. In the next four to five years, you're going to see less and less of that it's going to become a little bit more. I don't want to say traditional, but a little bit more normal.
DAVID PALESCHUCK
Let's just ask the question straight up front, what are the key challenges to getting in the industry?
RAY NAVIS
Gain as much knowledge as you can about the industry. There are two excellent websites. MJBiz Daily, is a great place to go and see what's going on in the industry. I think New Cannabis Ventures is also an excellent website that they focus on the flow of money and capital into the industry. And that shows you who's growing and who's going to need people. So I would say that, following those, there are a number of other websites and magazines and stuff that will be helpful. I know Marijuana Venture, which is out of the Pacific Northwest is also a pretty good and I would dive into those Cannabis Business Times is also excellent. And any of those publications, really will digging in on those will give you a great deal of knowledge. And more than likely a light bulb will go off. And you'll say well that's me, and I can really help them and that'll, that'll give you your path.
ADRIANA HEMANS
Talking about job opportunities and having your perspective here, and you've seen fluctuations in the job market, we've seen fluctuations and other parts of the market. And now knowing everything that's going on the agricultural side and how that's causing a ripple effect. Can you talk a little bit about sort of like those macro trends in the industry that influence the availability of jobs and what makes the job market tougher or easier at certain times as we're, as we're expanding?
RAY NAVIS
Well, right now, cannabis is a is a regional game, the growth is happening in other states and middle of the country, the eastern seaboard, maybe Florida, California is a little bit stagnant right now. I would say there's a lot of good people in California that are probably looking for a position. So in terms of, you know, where the market is hot, where you're most likely going to find opportunities would be in the markets that are that are growing faster. And, again, that this is something that if you followed MJBiz Daily, they would be talking about this probably at least on a weekly basis.
DAVID PALESCHUCK
When I think of the industry, I often think of CannaCon, which started in Seattle. They created the first show, and then the next year, a second show, and the third year, attendance dropped off, and in the fourth year, they were into a new market. That’s when it kind of dawned on me this is very linear. The licenses come out from the state, then people are growing product, then they're building a brand, it’s all very linear. Is there an easier place for people to get on the train?
RAY NAVIS
Well, I would say that for candidates do the best job that you can, trying to figure out who the people are, that are really have a chance to win and be successful. You know, that's what I would be looking for. And if you're, it's no different than any other business, are they properly funded? What is their background to be doing this? I think many of the mistakes so far in cannabis have been people that are probably used to dealing used to developing real estate, where they then flip it when they're done. And yet, now they're staying on board to run the company. But they've never really done that before. They've been very successful at real estate development. But they're not great CEOs, or great CEOs, that kind of thing. So I would, I would, you know, look at the team that's involved, and, and particularly the ownership, make sure that the ownership is on the same page. And we see a lot of that the mistakes that have been made. So far, that's not the case.
ADRIANA HEMANS
So as we're here talking about, like, what the experience might be, like, from the perspective of a job seeker, let's level set and at the same time, do an audience participation, and just talk about just the size of the market itself.
DAVID PALESCHUCK
With Ohio in the mix as of a couple of weeks ago, you know, what state to legalize adult use cannabis. And now 38 states, including Washington, DC, you know, there's some sort of medical programs as well. So we're really what we're still young and fledgling where we're gaining momentum.
ADRIANA HEMANS
Let's jump over to our audience participation now that we're, you know, talking about stats and looking at sort of like the landscape from a more, I guess, factual, technical viewpoint. And for everyone who's listening in, feel free to drop your guesses in the chat. The question is, how many people are currently employed in the US cannabis industry? Is it less than 100,000? People A, is it less than 200,000, greater than 400,000 people or D greater than 500,000 people? Put your guests in the chat A, B, C or D, you have a 25% chance if you have no idea, just take a wild guess you still might get it right.
ADRIANA HEMANS
Let's read this comment from Sean. I come from the apparel business 30 plus years and consulted with numerous brands from large brands to start up. He's been looking to transition out of apparel and would love to enter the cannabis business. But it's been difficult to find a way in. Ray, do you have any thoughts about Sean's transition from apparel to cannabis?
RAY NAVIS
Sean, are you based in either New York or Los Angeles because imagine the apparel industries seems to be headquarters in those two areas, there's certainly going to be a lot of growth in New York, although it's off to a rough start. But again, I think the way to get into the cannabis industry is to do something very similar to what you're good at. And that is the easiest way in. I know a lot of people from the beverage industry have made it into cannabis, Red Bull, Monster, the whole skew of alcohol, whether it's beer or, you know, spirits, wine and spirits, a lot of people have moved into position, especially in sales and marketing, from those areas, you know, coming from apparel, and it would sound like, and I'm not sure what kind of apparel that he's involved with. But yeah, I mean, I always say the, you know, the best thing is just figure out, do a little study about what these companies are doing. And if you can go in there and say, I've done this and get yourself into the right person, you'll have a good shot of getting involved.
DAVID PALESCHUCK
If I were you, one of the things I'd be looking for are there any lifestyle brands that tie cannabis together with apparel? And the answer is yes. And probably the one that stands out in my mind immediately is the Cookies brand, right. And while Cookies has a decent business, in the cannabis space, they've got a 30+ million dollar business in the apparel space. They sell in Zumiez in almost 700 stores in shopping malls across the country. Working for a brand like Cookies might help you leverage your apparel business and experience with what's happening in the cannabis space. So try to try to connect those dots and try to think about, you know, approaching companies like that. I think that's your best bet.
Sunday school based out of New York. Exactly. So there were Thank you Tatiana. So there are definitely companies that are apparel focused with the cannabis lifestyle component to it. I think that would be a great spot for you.
ADRIANA HEMANS
Let's connect the dots and answer this question. The stat came from Leafly is 2022 jobs report. But that number to 420,059 full time cannabis industry jobs, probably more than that now since that was last year. That's a significant number of people.
DAVID PALESCHUCK
What's interesting too, is more than 100,000 jobs were created in 2021, just after the pandemic. So it's really intriguing to see when these spurts of growth happen and where they happen. And of course, they're, you know, because it's such a fragmented industry that, you know, things are happening in different places. And that's also something that we should just touch upon briefly. You know, Melissa here is talking about that. She's the Texas feed. You know, there are other people Ray, you just mentioned New York and LA. So there's, there's opportunities out there, but they're definitely location specific. And I think that's important to call out as well as the market evolves.
RAY NAVIS
I had discussed a couple of things prior I think it's good time to mention. And tell the audience misconceptions about the industry. I think a big misconception is that it's still I get this daily, is it wow, is everybody high all day long in this business, and an art is it all stoners and it nothing could be further from the truth. Most of the people in this Business have a lot of money invested, they are very serious about what they're doing. And sure they partake of the products at the appropriate time. But it is it is kind of rare to see. And I would have to say that, you know, those people that are stoned all day and using investor money are probably not going to last too long. So it's just it's not that much different, you know, and people say, Wow, what do you do in the cannabis? Well, cannabis is, is three or four different sectors together, it's either cultivation, or its manufacturing, or its extraction. And that's it. So it's, it's falls very neatly into good manufacturing is like manufacturing of a candy company, or some kind of a edible company. Cultivation is like agriculture, traditional farming, and extraction now you get into things more where it's more like the, you know, other sectors in the in the lab world. But it's just not that much different. And, and I think you'd find that the serious people in the industry are, you know, they take their job very seriously.
ADRIANA HEMANS
So you mentioned a misconception about the industry that people are getting stoned all day. What? What other misconceptions are there about the cannabis industry that you hear? Or maybe another way to ask the same question is like, why are people so interested in getting started here?
RAY NAVIS
CNBC a couple years ago ran a bunch of shows about I can't remember what they called it about how much money people were making in the cannabis industry. And yes, there have been some people that have made a great deal of money in the cannabis industry. I'm not so sure that's happening right now. So that that could be a little bit of a misconception. I do think that it's, you know, the blue skies ahead. For that, and also, maybe on the flip side, maybe a misconception right now is that the cannabis industry is not doing well. Well, there are a number of things that could trigger a reversal very quickly. You've got safe banking in front of the Senate you've got rescheduling coming out of the DEA. And if and there's a host of things on the medical side of cannabis, that haven't even been touched yet, because of the fact that it's not legal, they haven't been able to really study cannabinoids, and do test runs, etc. There's a there's just a world of opportunity that's going to come out of cannabis. And I mean, every day I hear of some incredible cure that came from someone in the cannabis industry giving a relative a tincture or what have you. And, you know, a lot of positives.
DAVID PALESCHUCK
Anthony just mentioned a moment ago 280e, which for those folks that don't know, 280e is tax that is put on the cannabis industry of primarily because cannabis is still considered a schedule one drug or substance act. And as Ray just alluded to, the rescheduling of cannabis will also remove that tax. And that tax really is all of the costs, all of the expenses aren't able to be written off. And to make it as simple as possible. If someone were to open up a restaurant, and they were to put millions of dollars on art on the wall of this restaurant, they're able to expense that. Whereas because that's a cost of doing business, and it's an expensive, because in the cannabis space, you're not allowed to do that across the board. So dispensaries that are investing in beautiful interiors are really doing that at their, their cost and are not able to write that off, which really basically puts the cannabis industry in a very tough spot makes it really hard to be profitable. And so that reschedule will change the way the business is done, or the write offs are taken into effect.
RAY NAVIS
My understanding is that that would make almost every company worth double what they're worth today. Now, I will tell you that I was I was speaking at the PBC Conference in Washington DC and I spoke to somebody from the IRS and they said this is not going to be retroactive when they do it. So careful about running out there and buying up cannabis stocks on the rescheduling.
DAVID PALESCHUCK
Why don't we jump to audience participation number two, to bring up that next slide. And this is this is really intriguing. Which industry and wait for the slide? Here we go. Which industry has more total jobs than legal cannabis jobs in the US? Is it a firefighters, be machinists, fee bank tellers, who are the plumbers and pipefitters? And so really what we're asking here is, which, which industry has more people working in it? Based on these, and we might have, might have some insight into that earlier, because you saw the number that came up before over 400,000 people working in industry, but just to compare the industry and how many people are employed in it, versus some of the other, you know, roles and positions that that other people hold? I think it's really something interesting and something telling. So is it A. Firefighters? B. Machinist? C. Bank Tellers? or D. Plumbers and Pipefitters?
ADRIANA HEMANS
Anthony's guessing the entity got the last one. Right. So you may be on to something with this one.Not everybody has to use a bank, but everybody has to use the toilet.
DAVID PALESCHUCK
That's a good way to look at it. Well, why don't we? Why don't we jump to the next slide? And we'll take a look. And the answer is D. Plumbers & Pipefitters. So, Adriana, you hit the nail on the head.
ADRIANA HEMANS
Yeah, and almost everybody got it, right.
DAVID PALESCHUCK
That's right. Good job. And just so just to really, you know, talk about this very, very quickly, super high level, you can see the numbers here. there's 311,000 Machinists, there's 360,000 Bank Tellers, there's 423,000 which is interesting. Now with ATM machines, that number is probably declining. But then plumbers and pipefitters is 451,000. And that'll compares to the 420,000+ folks in the cannabis industry. And again, these are full time jobs, there's probably a lot more there is a lot more relative to, you know, to folks in the industry. But I think it's telling about how the industry is growing. You know, the opportunities for everybody to jump into the industry. So, Ray, how does, you know, how does the industry and the legalization of cannabis, you know, affect employment trends are? Are you seeing more? I mean, obviously, it's probably geographic. But are you seeing more high level folks coming into the C-suite? Can you can you sort of delineate that threat?
RAY NAVIS
Well, I will tell you that federal legalization would change everything. And federal and it's possible that some of these changes might happen with a combination of safe banking and rescheduling, you will see a lot of money coming into the sector. And that will spur growth, it will spur greater salaries, it will open up the doors for people that don't have cannabis experience to get involved. It will grow. If that happens. I mean, right now, there's a shortage of capital. And those two things happening would probably I'm not saying a surplus, but it would bring a lot of new players in that are not able to do so. Right now because of legalities. So you know, that again, that's a huge positive it's coming one day for sure. You know, hopefully we'll get part of it this year or in the next six months.
DAVID PALESCHUCK
Hopefully, fingers crossed. I don't see federal legalization coming across in the next six months.
DAVID PALESCHUCK
I think there's just too many other things going on in the world that are a little bit more important. And, and for that matter to I think a lot of folks in the industry, here, federal legalization as well.
DAVID PALESCHUCK
There's folks in the industry that want decontrol, there's other folks in the scheduling. And, you know, time will tell I suppose.
ADRIANA HEMANS
Imagine if you're Ohio and you just promised all these jobs, you don't want to compete with your neighbor next door, you want your citizenry to have the chance to benefit from legalization first. So I think that because of that, it's just going to take a really long time.
RAY NAVIS
Another way of just thinking for people to get involved in cannabis would be to indirectly move into maybe right now a position, let's say in the beverage industry, or someone where it's very, almost directly transferable. And then when these things happen, that give cannabis a window at its back, you would have the right experience coming in. So that's a possibility. And it depends on what your interests are. If you're in marketing and sales, I would say something in the beverage industry. You know, if you were in agriculture, I would say something in controlled environment, agriculture, which are larger greenhouse type facilities.
DAVID PALESCHUCK
Ray, you say something really, really interesting. And I think it's great advice for folks, which is, you know, that maybe it's not a direction from where they are into the cannabis industry. But maybe there's a middle ground, there's a few steps that brings them closer for the industry to build their skill set to build their experience. And I think most people don't think about it that they're kind of like I want to get in how do I get in now? And so I think I think there's a great nugget of advice for the folks that are listening.
RAY NAVIS
Yep. Absolutely. And anyway, far away, I think I think you had a couple more questions for me.
ADRIANA HEMANS
So I do want to call out a question Michael dropped in the chat, which I think is really interesting. So I'm going to read his whole comment. So he said, I'm interested in the use and development of third party logistics in relation to warehousing, transportation, distribution, et cetera, in the cannabis industry. I ran an RFP for warehousing in Canada last year and another industry and about half the respondents participating were involved in the Canadian cannabis industry, they all seem to consider this a real feather in their cap. Lol, do you see growth in the US in 3PL and again, that's third party logistics companies in the industry. So do you see that like sort of like the growth of cannabis is going to create job opportunities for third party companies that don't only serve cannabis, but do logistics for multiple industries.
RAY NAVIS
I think is already happening. I think vape manufacturers are already setting up operations like this. So I think you're going to see a lot more of this. And I think, you know, sophisticated supply chain experience is going to be very important in cannabis. Because it'll all eventually will be about just running the machine the most profitable way that you can. Now, those probably need to be a certain size company in order to appreciate that experience. And I don't know, let's say a building would probably need to be at least 50,000 square feet to maybe 100,000. And because otherwise they would those responsibilities would fall on like a VP of operations or an operations manager, the larger companies are going to hire somebody specifically for supply chain. But it is definitely a growth it will be a big part of the industry.
DAVID PALESCHUCK
Justin Johnson, who owns Chill Steel Pipes basically built his business around, both focused on three pl You know, importing from China, and has a warehouse in Las Vegas. And, you know, working with third parties, really to distribute this product and I think that is becoming for those products that can be shipped across state lines. That's where it really becomes important. I think that's important to call out. If it's flour or anything with THC in it. Minus it's really difficult to get into that into leverage that I should say, Ray, we always ask a last question of our guest. Is there a book or experience you’d like to share with our audience to help them along their way?
RAY NAVIS
A book that I read when I got started, was called “Big Weed” by Christian Hageseth And I thought that was very interesting. That book is probably dated by now. If you go to MJBizCon, you're going to see it all. And for somebody that was really interested in getting into the industry, they should be at that conference. And I know it's coming up pretty quickly. For people, but I've looked down, you know, of course, the, the lead hotel, and you know, a lot of people are going to be at the Cosmo, those prices are off the charts, but at the same time, 15 minutes away, very reasonable prices at other nice hotels. So it's not too late for somebody to get involved. The, you know, the expo only floor pass is still pretty reasonable. I think it's probably $400, something like that. And it would really be an eye opener, I don't think most people would even imagine how big this conferences, it's actually, at one point, I think two years ago was the largest conference in Las Vegas, period, everything. And people have got are kind of hard to do. They can't imagine cannabis really. But people come from all over the world to this conference. And, and I would say that, you know, you it'll be you'll be your head will be spinning, but probably some things will open up in your mind. Absolutely.
DAVID PALESCHUCK
Yeah, I think just a couple of years ago, the show had over 30,000 attendees. And, and again, it has everything from agricultural products, you know, all the way through to extraction machines all the way through to legal and accounting services, and folks, you know, point of sale, you name it.
ADRIANA HEMANS
Thank you for your time, Ray. We really appreciate it.
RAY NAVIS
Thank you for having me.
DAVID PALESCHUCK
That’s our show for today. As always, that was the fastest 45 minutes of my week! Next week is Thanksgiving. We’ll be back next Thursday, November 30th with Wendy Bronfein, Cofounder and Chief Brand Officer of Curio Wellness and we’ll be chatting about “Cannabis And Consistency.”
We’ve recently released two online courses that have received rave reviews. “The 14 Cannabis Brand Archetypes” and “Creating A Meaningful Cannabis Brand” can be found on our site at www.brandingbud.com/edu - and you find the link right now in the chat. Remember to use our exclusive 25% discount code BBEDU25 for our LinkedIn listeners.
Again, we’d like to thank our sponsor, High Hopes – a boutique agency with over 10 years in the cannabis space specializing in branding, packaging, SEO & marketing. Be sure to check them out at www.highopes.co.
ADRIANA HEMANS
Hit that button to register so you don’t miss it. If you miss us in the meantime, you can re-watch today’s episode, or any of our previous episodes, on our LinkedIn page, Branding Bud Live, or on our YouTube channel. Please give us a follow on LinkedIn to stay on top of everything Branding Bud Live.
DAVID PALESCHUCK
And you can listen to our podcast on most podcast platforms including Apple, Google, Amazon, and Spotify. And of course, don’t forget to check out cannabis’s best-kept secret at www.brandingbud.com
Thank you everybody!
ADRIANA HEMANS
Thank you. Bye!
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