THE SUMMARY

Curious to know more about the historical role of beverages, and how cannabis-infused drinks might reshape social interaction? In this episode, "The Socialization of Cannabis Beverages", co-hosts David Paleschuck and Adriana Hemans explore the socialization of cannabis beverages and their significance in reshaping social drinking with Seng Robertson, Technical Director of Cannabis Research & Development at The Boston Beer Company.

THE CO-HOSTS

David Paleschuck, Adriana Hemans

THE SPECIAL GUEST

Seng Robertson, Director of Cannabis R&D, The Boston Beer Company

THE TRANSCRIPT

DAVID PALESCHUCK

Welcome to Branding Bud Live, the live stream that’s 100% THC and 0% WTF.  Every week we speak with business people about the business of cannabis. I’m David Paleschuck, founder of Branding Bud Consulting Group and author of the first book on cannabis branding. I’m joined by my co-host Adriana Hemans, a Marketing executive with over 8 years in the cannabis space. Hi Adriana! 

ADRIANA HEMANS

Hi David. Thank you for that intro. I’m so excited to co-host the show with you. We’re bringing amazing guests from across the cannabis ecosystem to share their perspectives. My favorite thing about Branding Bud Live is that we focus on building community - and we encourage audience participation. It’s not just about us talking, it’s about all of us building something together. So feel free to drop your questions and/or opinions in the chat, and we’ll share them too. 

DAVID PALESCHUCK

Thank you, Adriana. And thank you, everyone, for joining us today. We have a lot to get into today. Today, we’ll be talking with Seng Robertson, Technical Director of Cannabis R&D at The Boston Beer Company. Today, we’ll be chatting about "The Socialization of Cannabis Beverages" with Seng. Some of the topics covered are:

• What role have beverages played in shaping gender associations and societal expectations, and how does this translate to cannabis beverages?

• How have beverages traditionally been used to celebrate specific occasions, and how can cannabis beverages contribute to this tradition?

• What are some examples of cannabis beverages that are specifically designed for socializing and creating shared experiences? 

I’m super excited to chat with Seng today. 

ADRIANA: 

Me too! 

DAVID PALESCHUCK

Please welcome Seng Robertson. 

ADRIANA HEMANS 

Hey, Seng, welcome. Tell us about yourself, what are you passionate about? 

SENG ROBERTSON

Hello. Glad to be on here. Thank you, David. Thank you. Adriana. Yeah, talking about socialization. Definitely. Soccer is my socialization, love playing soccer. And even at this age, there's nothing better than having teammates cheer you on. So soccer would be one reading, passionate about reading, currently reading the creative act of being a way of being you know, by Rick Rubin. So that's the book I'm reading now. And really learning things. You know, this week, I took a pottery class for the first time. The last few years, I've been growing a cannabis plant, I have a miniature plant that's starting to grow right here. So you know, anybody in the audience open for audience advice on how to grow better cannabis? You know, it's it there is there is a technique. So again, love learning new things, and really trying to elevate my growing experience. So I love that. 

DAVID PALESCHUCK

How does one become the Technical Director of Cannabis Research & Development at The Boston Beer Company? That sounds like such an interesting job. Tell us about it! 

SENG ROBERTSON

I have to say, technical director, I get a lot of it solicitation from LinkedIn. I'm the last person you want to ask for it. But I can tell you technical director. Really, I started with many roles. I started with a quality role when I first graduated, you know, and then I went into research, and then product development and operations. So I really had that opportunity to really build this base with, you know, different experiences, and really a wide base of knowledge, which you really need to launch a good product, you know, in terms of quality and in researching. So I've been really fortunate to have that different experience, and really enjoy mentoring teams. So you know, that's how I became a technical director. I joined the industry in 2018, the cannabis industry and ever since then fell in love with it, and, you know, had this great opportunity to join the Boston Beer Company, you know, which is a great organization. And, yeah, it's been, it's a great role to have. And, you know, it's challenging being in this new space. But, you know, I think having that diverse background has really helped. So that's what a technical director does a little bit of everything many hats. 

ADRIANA: 

At a very high-level, would you mind talking us through the science of a cannabis-infused beverage? 

SENG ROBERTSON

Yeah, I think there's this misconception that it's like this really new product, but if you think about it, what we're really making is a beverage, you know, in a great tasting beverage. So at the end of the day, you know, it's similar to say an energy drink where people are infusing caffeine into a beverage working. You know, cannabis is really these cannabinoids are ingredients that we're infusing into a beverage. So first and foremost, you're developing a beverage, and then you're infusing the cannabinoids, where there is maybe a bit of nuance is these cannabinoids aren't water soluble. So you have to contend with somehow mixing a non-water loving with the liquid. So there's different ways of doing that. But again, it's not new to the food industry. The food industry has dealt with emotions if you think about even something as simple as milk, your you know emulsifying fat globules into water so You know, similar to milk, you have to find a way to get these non-water loving molecules into the beverage. So that's one thing that's a little bit different. And then the other thing is cannabinoids can react to oxygen light packaging, even the different ingredients. So you have to be really knowledgeable about making sure that you know, your beverage has the amount of cannabinoids that meets the label claim. You know, so, you know, there's definitely science behind it. But it is a lot of product development. At the end of the day, you are making a beverage that needs to taste good. And really, when you're developing the sensory is so important, right? So if someone came to me and said, I developed that formulation in three tries, I'd be like, How good does that formulation taste? I can say we sometimes go over 50 to 100 iterations, you know, little changes in nuances to kind of perfect that, you know, beverage So, but at a high level, there is a lot of science behind a cannabis beverage. 

DAVID PALESCHUCK

You know, it seems to me, just in terms of the iterations, it seems to me over the course of time that I've been in the industry and working with beverages, which is now I guess, almost 12 years. And initially, you didn't have that homogenization you, you know, you had lots of cannabis oil sticking to the cap, you know, in the bottle or to the bottom, or you had some sort of separation. And it seems in, I don't know, I want to say maybe the last four or five years, that's been sort of worked through. So it's just interesting to see the I guess how beverages have been developed in a strange way. Because initially, they were like, for example, for 20 quencher, or cannabis quench or rather, you know, more of a juice there is sweet. And the sweetness was really often to offset the tastes of cannabis. And now that we've worked through, you know, with companies like source and virtuosa, among others, that have sort of worked through the technology. And now we're at a place where people are adding terpenes or coming back to the cannabis flavor, intentionally rather than trying to hide it with different things. Has technology changed? In the course of the last few years that has allowed the flavor profiles to change as well.

SENG ROBERTSON

Absolutely, I think you know, anybody who's tasted a bad cannabis beverage, I hope you don't stay away from the category because cannabis beverages can taste good. And I think exactly like what you said, David, like, you know, you know, we didn't bring it like, you know, anyone who's developed it early on, maybe prior to legalization, maybe the science wasn't there. But now that we have the science to make a great tasting beverage, I think, you know, we can bring people back to the category who might have tasted it once before. I was like, this is secondly sweets. But, you know, I think, you know, it can be really, really good. And I think, you know, is pulling in, you know, like I said, you know, this experience from the CPG world where, you know, abortions aren't new to the food industry. So I think that's what's really important that we continually improve the site. It seems like. 

ADRIANA HEMANS 

Seng, tell us about the thought process & strategy that went into creating a cannabis-infused beverage – especially coming from a brewing company?

SENG ROBERTSON

Yeah, I would say, you know, Boston Beer Company knows beverages, right? They're really great at creating great brands that are iconic, you know, when you think about like, truly, or dogfish or Sam Adams, twisted tea, angry orchard. So, you know, a lot of great brands with a lot of great tasting beverages, I would say, you know, similar to what, Michael Kaufman who's been on your podcast previously, he said, you know, it starts with a quality product, you know, without a quality product you can only get so far. And I think that's part of the ethos of Boston Beer, like a quality product. We knew we could create a great cannabis product and, you know, we knew we could be leaders in that category. So you know, I think it was a great fit. And you know, with tea pot, it's really, you know, the right pot with the right T with the right time of day. And you know, having experience with twisted T that's doing phenomenally well right now, I think it was just an easy transition to say yes, we can do this and we can do this well.

ADRIANA HEMANS 

Is the cannabis-infused beverage consumer different from the alcohol beverage consumer? Are they mutually exclusive or is there overlap? 

SENG ROBERTSON

exactly once an alcoholic product and one is not an alcoholic product, one is cannabis infused. Again, you know, we're actually under a subsidiary of the Boston Beer Company. So we're fully only operational in Canada, you know, that kind of separates us from the US market where we only operate in Canada, and we're a subsidiary of the Boston Beer Company. But again, you know, we have the ability to tap into a great resource at Boston, and all the talented people there to help develop product and, you know, just for those that aren't familiar, familiar with this, just to put this in perspective, you know, a lot of people have heard of Sam Adams, a lot of people that have heard of angry orchard, that sort of thing, but you know, sometimes they haven't heard of Boston Beer of the Boston Beer Company. So, you know, it's, this is as important as, for example, packs, the ribbon, creating apps, labs, and coming into the cannabis space. You know, when there's other large beverage companies out there that are looking at the space and, and waiting for the right moment, but I have to say, you know, I respect those companies that jumped in earlier and in a really legitimizing and normalizing the space, and also the form factor to, you know, have a cannabis infused beverage. I think that's really important.

DAVID PALESCHUCK

How can cannabis beverages contribute to a more balanced and moderated social drinking experience? 

SENG ROBERTSON

I think though, occasion, you know, um, cannabis occasions seem to really mirror that alcohol occasion like beer and wine. You know, I work with a lot of colleagues who are beer drinkers, and I know they're also cannabis users. So to me, I kind of lean towards that way from experience in seeing what's going on around me. But I think yeah, all these all these drinkers could be cannabis drinkers are also flour consumers. 

ADRIANA HEMANS 

Let’s jump into the audience participation. Here we go. Audience it’s your chance to shine!

In Q1 of this year, consumers of which beverage type were most likely to also be flower consumers? 

A. Beer drinkers

B. Coffee drinkers

C. Wine drinkers

D. Tea drinkers

DAVID PALESCHUCK

Let’s reveal the answer, shall we?

ADRIANA HEMANS 

A. Beer drinkers!

Beer drinkers - 17% - "Of those that consumed beer 17% reported also consuming cannabis flower in the last three months."

Coffee drinkers - 13%

Wine drinkers - 15%

Tea drinkers - 12% 

DAVID PALESCHUCK 

How have beverages traditionally been used to celebrate specific occasions, and how can cannabis beverages contribute to this tradition? 

SENG ROBERTSON

I think it can definitely fit into celebrating occasions, I think beverages in general are, you know, really an important part of celebrations, they kind of create this memory Association. I can say, you know, even like, celebrating a milestone birthday in Banff, I can vividly remember the cocktail, a drink, you know, you know, it was like a watermelon Rosemary cocktail. And it just is part of a great memory association with celebrations. And I think cannabis can really be part of that. And the reason being is out of all the form factors for cannabis. There was an ellipsis you know, a study and it showed that cannabis beverages were was, you know, four times more likely to be consumed in a group environment of five or more versus like a vape or, you know, an edible. So I think that really points to like the social aspect and, you know, the celebratory, you know, you're celebrating with friends or family. It can be any beverage really and cannabis can really play into that, you know, So, to me, I think it works really well with celebrations, you know, when you're choosing with friends and family, and like you said it could be champagne, it could be celebrating at, you know, a sporting event with a beer like beverages or just variances to help elevate that celebration.

ADRIANA HEMANS 

What role have beverages played in shaping gender associations and societal expectations, and how does this translate to cannabis beverages? 

SENG ROBERTSON

I think it reminds me of this commercial that I, I saw one time where like, you know, a couple orders, a cocktail and a beer, and the server brings it and automatically brings the beer to the male and the cocktail to the female. And it was kind of in and you know, the, the customers, they switch, because it was really the female that ordered the beer. And I can say being like this, Asian female, when I order beer people be like, I didn't expect you to order your beer. But sometimes I do prefer beer over a cocktail. So I think there is already stereotypes historically, and alcohol, were, as in cannabis, a new category, I think anyone involved in marketing or you know, developing a brand, we do have, you know, a responsibility that it's very inclusive, it doesn't need to be one gender or another, and we have the opportunity with this new category B, to define it. So to me, I'm very excited about it. And again, you know, like even looking at tea pot, when you look at the brand, it doesn't really sway somebody to say it's a female or a male brand or, you know, a specific, you know, it's very inclusive. And I think a lot of the cannabis brands that have come out are very inclusive, I can't say I look at one and think, oh, male, female, or, you know, an older demographic or a younger demographic. And this really gets me excited about this category. Because we can do away with all those stereotypes, right? So, yeah, I think it's great opportunity. 

DAVID PALESCHUCK 

Not too long ago, a couple of years ago, Ken was just Ken, but I want to say two years ago, during Gay Pride Month, the two owners came out and said they were gay. Their ads, all of a sudden took a right turn and really showed LGBTQ forward ads, and the really harnessed a community that was there. And so it's interesting, like, on one hand, we talk about old fashioned stereotypes, you know, of male and female and, and the fear versus the cocktail. But it's interesting to sort of see how this shared experience this community experiences sort of really what's happening right now, especially in the cannabis space, you know, where there are brands for these specific communities or to cater to these communities, or at the very least, to be inclusive of these communities. And I think that's really interesting. And, and, you know, certainly a trend in the general world, but, but almost like a hybrid trend in the cannabis space. So I think it's, it's really a reaction to the outside world, too. But have you seen any other brands that, you know, seem to be hyper focused on a, on a community? 

SENG ROBERTSON

I wouldn't say in Canada, I've seen that. You know, I think one of the issues here in Canada is advertisement, you know, you can't really advertise to a certain demographic because advertisement is almost nonexistent in the cannabis industry. We're very regulated with advertising. So you It's hard to advertise to community even in the way that it's regulated. So I think that is one of the challenges. But again, I haven't really seen that in Canada. I feel like, you know, it's been very, all brands are very open and you know, not really, not really like, kind of catering to a certain community, but just being very open.

ADRIANA HEMANS 

Let’s jump into the audience participation #2. Here we go. Audience it’s your chance to shine! 

During the first 10 months of 2022, which US state had the highest growth in cannabis beverage sales? 

A. Arizona

B. Illinois

C. Colorado

D. Michigan

Seng, what are your thoughts on this? 

SENG ROBERTSON

You're asking it Canadian. This one's extremely hard for me. Well, you know, we do produce our beverages just right across from Michigan. I could pretty much see Michigan when I'm there. So I would say Michigan just because yeah, I can see it from the border. That's the only that's the only basis I have no other basis of making this choice. 

DAVID PALESCHUCK

That’s what Sarah Palin said about Russia and she could see it from Alaska. Let’s reveal the answer, shall we?

D.  Michigan

Through the first ten months of 2022, Michigan’s Beverage sales have increased 272% over the same period in 2021. Other top sales growth markets include Ontario (+67%) and Massachusetts (+53%). On the other hand, Colorado (-15%), Maryland (-17%), and Nevada (-21%), all have had negative Beverage sales growth over this period.

Source: Headset.io - Cannabis Beverages: Examining Category Trends
Published November 18, 2022 

DAVID PALESCHUCK 

What are the potential economic implications and growth prospects for both alcohol and the cannabis beverage industries? 

SENG ROBERTSON

there is space for both and when you think about the alcohol industry is huge. It's, you know, people love beverages, you know, so I think it's not one or the other, I think there's going to, you know, alcohol is not going to go anywhere. It's, you know, a tried into true beverage form. I think there's also room for the cannabis. And this could be, you know, people who, for some, you know, for their own personal reasons, don't drink alcohol, it's giving them a choice. And you know, you're drawing in people who don't drink alcohol, but now they have a choice to drink, cannabis beverages. And hopefully, like one day in consume, like, you know, in restaurants, you can drink cannabis, because, you know, you're giving people options. So, one, you are drawing in new drinkers for sure. But there's also you know, people's preferences, consumers preferences change, in some are, you know, kind of deciding to drink less alcohol, and you do see that, and that's, you know, you're keeping that those drinkers by providing them again, choice with cannabis beverages or a non-alcoholic. You know, I've been going to a lot of dinners, and it's just really interesting people are, you know, I had ordered a Sam Adams Gold Rush, which is a non-alcoholic beer. And I'm like, Oh, am I going to be the only one not drinking, it turns out, quite a few people drink either they didn't want to, you know, drive home, they had to drive home, or they've had a stressful day or whatnot. But I think there is space for both. And I think economics wise, you're just, you're either keeping drinkers, or you're bringing in new drinkers who maybe didn't drink alcohol, there's going to be a bit of cannibalism. But you know what, again, the alcohol industry is large. So I think more important is you're either going to bring in new drinkers who didn't drink alcohol, or you're going to keep drinkers who are going away from alcohol.

ADRIANA HEMANS 

Any final thoughts and/or predictions on the future of cannabis-infused beverages, Seng? 

SENG ROBERTSON

Yeah, I would say for sure, there's going to be a tipping point. You know, with cannabis beverages, it's difficult when, you know, you can advertise and some of my friends didn't even know that cannabis beverages were available or didn't know where to purchase it. But I think, you know, there will be a tipping point and I could give two personal stories of, you know, the start of this tipping point. One is a friend who texted me and he's just like, you know, during frosh week at university or local university, they had to confiscate cannabis beverages. Now, anybody who knows when you start, you know, college or university, you're not of age to drink alcohol or cannabis beverages, and traditionally, they have to confiscate alcoholic beverages. It's quite common, but to finally hear that, okay. They're confiscating cannabis beverages. Yes. If you're underage, please don't drink, but they're confiscating cannabis beverages in it. Just goes to what you said earlier Adrianna of that demographic, right. So that is very interesting. And then the other one would be, you know, I had a friend come over and normally I pull up in the fridge and it gave him a beer. And he said, Actually, can I have a tea pot? And I was just like, internally happy, like, you know, like, someone's asking for a tea pot. So I think there will be a tipping point where, you know, cannabis beverages is normalized and, you know, more wide stream, and hopefully there's consumption lounges and being able to drink in, you know, restaurants, and I just think, yeah, we're getting close to that tipping point. 

ADRIANA HEMANS

we appreciate that they've also taken the step to normalize the acceptance of cannabis and to make, you know, make products that everybody can enjoy in a safe, safe way. And that's what it's all about. So thank you for spending time with us today. 

SENG ROBERTSON

And thank you, Adrian, and David for really creating this community so we can chat about these great topics and important topics. So thank you. Thank you. 

DAVID PALESCHUCK 

Thank you, Seng. As always, right. We've got we've got great people sharing great advice and great knowledge. That's really what Branding Bud Live is all about. 

ADRIANA HEMANS 

Thank you, Seng.

DAVID PALESCHUCK 

That’s our show for today. We’ll be back again next Thursday, May 25th with Lana Van Brunt & Hayley Dineen, Founders of Sackville – NYC-based cannabis accessories company. We’ll be chatting about "Cannabis: Design & Lifestyle".

ADRIANA HEMANS

We just dropped a link in the chat for next week’s episode. Hit that button to register so you don’t miss it. If you miss us in the meantime, you can re-watch today’s episode, or any of our previous episodes, on our LinkedIn page, Branding Bud Live, or on our YouTube channel. Please give us a follow on LinkedIn to stay on top of everything Branding Bud Live.

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DAVID PALESCHUCK 

That's right. And don't forget to check out cannabis’s best kept secret at www.brandingbud.com. Thank you, everybody. See you next week. Bye.

ADRIANA HEMANS 

Thank you. Bye.

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